fedora-kde / SIG

#151 Suggestion: a better separation of the "KDE Applications" group and the "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" could make minimal installations hassle-free through the Everything ISO
Closed: Won't fix by marcdeop. Opened by limao-doce.

Closed: Won't fix
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Using the Everything ISO doesn't really create allows the user to minimal install through the graphical package selector in Anaconda because some applications that could be in the "KDE Applications" group are in the "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" group. This guide, for example, allows creating a minimal installation using the Everything installer. However, the user must type a lot of package names of things that needs to be installed, which is a really tiresome task. Also, the guide I mentioned seems outdated already and it's unclear if a new core package has been introduced, which may lead the user in a broken state.

The criteria for separating the applications between these two groups feels off. ark, for example, is an application and it's KDE Applications group, that is something coesive. However, why kcolorchooser, kaddressbook, kgpg, kmousetool, kruler, kfind, kmail, kmag, korganizer, are in the KDE (K Desktop Environment) group? Why kamoso is in the KDE Multimedia group since it only takes photos and records videos, but can't open and play them respectively?

Some people are afraid to remove these packages because it's not really clear if their dependencies are tied to a crucial component of the OS. If the user needs them, the installation could be made through Konsole or Discover. Installing is less frightening than removing. I also think that plasma-systemmonitor, kde-partitionmanager, spectacle, kwrite, okular, gwenview, kcharselect, kcalc could be moved to KDE Applications aswell with the exception of konsole, kinfocenter, khelpcenter, dolphin, plasma-discover. There a few packages in the KDE (K Desktop Environment) group that aren't installed by default, such as kaffeine, that could be moved to the KDE Applications group too.

A lot of people say that Fedora KDE is bloated and this change could offer a better choice to make a minimal install. 

$ dnf group info "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"
Last metadata expiration check: 1:28:34 ago on Mon 22 Nov 2021 01:27:45 AM -03.
Group: KDE (K Desktop Environment)
 Description: KDE is a powerful graphical user interface which includes a panel, desktop, system icons, and a graphical file manager.
 Mandatory Packages:
   plasma-desktop
   plasma-workspace
   qt5-qtbase-gui
   sddm
   sddm-breeze
   sddm-kcm
 Default Packages:
   NetworkManager-config-connectivity-fedora
   PackageKit-command-not-found
   abrt-desktop
   adwaita-gtk2-theme
   akregator
   bluedevil
   breeze-icon-theme
   colord-kde
   cups-pk-helper
   dnfdragora
   dolphin
   firewall-config
   glibc-all-langpacks
   gnome-keyring-pam
   gwenview
   initial-setup-gui
   kaddressbook
   kamera
   kcalc
   kcharselect
   kcolorchooser
   kde-gtk-config
   kde-partitionmanager
   kde-print-manager
   kde-settings-pulseaudio
   kdegraphics-thumbnailers
   kdeplasma-addons
   kdialog
   kdnssd
   keditbookmarks
   kf5-akonadi-server
   kf5-akonadi-server-mysql
   kf5-baloo-file
   kf5-kipi-plugins
   kfind
   kgpg
   khelpcenter
   khotkeys
   kinfocenter
   kmag
   kmail
   kmenuedit
   kmousetool
   kmouth
   konsole5
   kontact
   korganizer
   kruler
   kscreen
   kscreenlocker
   ksshaskpass
   kwalletmanager5
   kwebkitpart
   kwin
   kwrite
   okular
   pam-kwallet
   phonon-qt5-backend-gstreamer
   pinentry-qt
   plasma-breeze
   plasma-desktop-doc
   plasma-discover
   plasma-discover-notifier
   plasma-disks
   plasma-drkonqi
   plasma-nm
   plasma-nm-l2tp
   plasma-nm-openconnect
   plasma-nm-openswan
   plasma-nm-openvpn
   plasma-nm-pptp
   plasma-nm-vpnc
   plasma-pa
   plasma-systemmonitor
   plasma-thunderbolt
   plasma-vault
   plasma-workspace-geolocation
   plasma-workspace-xorg
   polkit-kde
   qt5-qtdeclarative
   spectacle
   xdg-desktop-portal-gnome
   xorg-x11-drv-libinput
 Optional Packages:
   kaffeine
   plasma-pk-updates
 Conditional Packages:
   k3b-extras-freeworld
   qt-at-spi

That list is already fairly small, as that's the core desktop applications for the absolutely most basic functions. However, it looks like you're looking at the merged group between Fedora and RPM Fusion, which makes that list bigger.

The guide you reference provides you a "minimal" KDE Plasma installation that doesn't do much of anything, and in our default Plasma Wayland setup, would be pretty useless for most people. For example, it omits Wi-Fi and VPN support, which people generally consider part of the "minimum viable setup". We don't officially support a setup in which the desktop itself is useless and people are forced to use the terminal for everything.

We have been trimming things from the spin over the past few years, though we also are trying to have a functional out-of-box experience regardless of which path you use to install.
Edited by ngompa

However, it looks like you're looking at the merged group between Fedora and RPM Fusion, which makes that list bigger.

No, there is an official Fedora package group named KDE Applications. Some of the default Fedora KDE Applications are in there, such as Ark and games.

The guide you reference provides you a "minimal" KDE Plasma installation that doesn't do much of anything, and in our default Plasma Wayland setup, would be pretty useless for most people. For example, it omits Wi-Fi and VPN support, which people generally consider part of the "minimum viable setup". We don't officially support a setup in which the desktop itself is useless and people are forced to use the terminal for everything.

But that's exactly the point of the post. Currently, if the users choose to have leaner install of Fedora, it won't be possible because of the problem that I described above. By using the Fedora Everything ISO and unchecking the KDE Applications group, this would be possible.

For example, I don't use a lot of these apps and they have a lot of dependencies (such as akregator). Why waste time and bandwidth to update them? I believe there are other users who share the same opinion.

It would only affect the Fedora Everything ISO, which is already labeled for experienced users in the Fedora website. The regular spin would continue to have the current applications installed by default, but with a better grouping.
Edited by limao-doce

We discussed about this topic yesterday on our meeting and we concluded we are not targetting a "minimal" installation but rather a "complete" desktop.

Metadata Update from @marcdeop:
- Issue close_status updated to: Won't fix
- Issue status updated to: Closed (was: Open)

I didn't understand. There is already a way to get a little less bloated installation with the Everything ISO. Currently, is possible to uncheck the KDE Applications group which will prevent Ark, games and a few other packages (that I don't remenber now, but I think ktorrent is in this group). Also, is possible to uncheck the KDE Multimedia support tool which will prevent kamoso, dragonplayer and juk from being installed. So why these option exist?

Just to be clear: I wasn't taking about the regular KDE spin. It was the Everything "spin". The regukar spin would remain with all of the applications that are installed currently.

The problem is in the definition of "less bloated" and "minimal". I am on the Fedora Minimization team and trust me, every move we make has the exact same two reactions. 1 - "You removed the functionality I use, put it back" 2 - "That is not small enough"

The KDE SIG members already have alot of things going on. We just put alot of work in balancing what is in the current KDE groups. We aren't going to touch them more than a package here and there.

But, if you want to create your own comps group, call it something like KDE Minimal Apps, you certainly can. That is the great thing about Fedora, people can contribute in all sorts of different ways.
https://pagure.io/fedora-comps

Understood, thanks for the explanation.

But, if you want to create your own comps group, call it something like KDE Minimal Apps, you certainly can. That is the great thing about Fedora, people can contribute in all sorts of different ways.
https://pagure.io/fedora-comps

It's a good idea. Is there a way to know which packages are safe to remove?
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