I was wondering if we should not stop installing gnome-session-xsession by default in F40 Workstation. I guess if we want to do that it should really happen before the Beta release. Alternatively it could be done more formally as a Fedora Change for F41, and first in Rawhide.
From my recollection the WG earlier discussed about the removal of gnome-session-xsession, but we decided not to do that (wisely) until upstream drops it, but I think we did not discuss about whether we want to continue pre-installing gnome-session-xsession or not.
I think it would be good to encourage more people to use Wayland, though without breaking installations for anyone.
Also currently gnome-classic-session has both Wayland and Xorg sessions, so it would need to be split: I assume we still want to install Classic by default.
Further I heard that this got reverted for F40 KDE Plasma: in that regard it might be wise to put this off to F41...?
From my recollection the WG earlier discussed about the removal of gnome-session-xsession, but we decided not to do that (wisely) until upstream drops it,
(Reference for this)
It was not reverted. Fedora KDE deliverables are not including Plasma X11. It is not being maintained by the KDE SIG, and we've made it clear to upstream that this is not changing what we're focused on.
I will at least send a pull request to split up gnome-classic x11 session as a subpackage.
Removing the X11 session from the default installation would actually match what Fedora KDE is doing. And it's a fairly modest proposal, since anybody who wants it back can just install it again.
Thanks!
I think this is actually sufficiently uncontroversial that we can save some time at our next meeting if we vote on it here instead. +1 from me.
Pull requests submitted:
gnome-session
gnome-shell-extensions
I think we should do it too. +1
I'm fine with GNOME on X not being provided by-default, but I think there should be a Changes page that details the situation, and for sure a sanctioned manner for restoring proper updates/ostree/SELinux supported Xorg sessions.
I initially considered the removal of Xorg session hostile since for years and even today I notice games and cursor movement performing better on GNOME on X vs Wayland. I'm fine with Wayland being default and being encouraged to use it, but I also want the choice to switch to Xorg.
I feel as if people have been over-praising Wayland for years. I still test performance and issues out on X sessions in-case it's a problem only on Wayland, and today I can still reproduce some odd issues (original D2 with a GL-to-Glide wrapper and OSRS both cap around 50 FPS with native OpenGL on Intel UHD 630 but runs uncapped with Zink with immediate wsi; 60+Hz refresh rates).
Realistically I can use Wayland today and most games run good-enough. I don't need GNOME on X.
Let's talk this through at next meeting. My suggestion would be to keep the status quo for F40 and submit a Change proposal for F41 to drop the X11 session from the default install set, and only do it in rawhide/F41.
We aren't having a meeting for two weeks, so that's a pretty long time to wait. I would prefer us to be able to make an async decision about removing the X11 session from the media in F40.
Personally, I would like it because it would let me reduce some delta with Fedora Asahi Remix GNOME where we explicitly exclude the X11 packages there.
I don't have a problem with it being removed from the default installation as long as it's still officially supported and maintained. I think that most of the people using X11 are long time Fedora users who keep upgrading anyway. That being said, Fedora 40 has already been branched out of rawhide and the beta is around the corner. I'd say it's a bit too late but it's fine for Fedora 41, currently in rawhide. Just make sure that there's proper documentation in place that says that it's been removed but that it's still supported and show people how to install it if they want to.
Metadata Update from @petersen: - Issue set to the milestone: Future Release (was: Fedora 40)
Fedora Workstation WG discussed this today and we agreed we should do this for Fedora 41, since it is really too late already for F40 and it should really be handled as a System Wide Change anyway.
This change is approved for Fedora 41 (not for Fedora 40).
@ngompa were you interested in implementing this?
Metadata Update from @catanzaro: - Issue untagged with: meeting - Issue set to the milestone: Fedora 40 (was: Future Release) - Issue tagged with: pending-action
Um, looks like we discussed and approved it twice? None of us remembered what we did two weeks ago? :) OK then!
This change is approved for Fedora 41 (not for Fedora 40). @ngompa were you interested in implementing this?
Yeah. Let's get it done. :100:
Whoops, I got very confused by the timestamps. I see Jens posted that update shortly before I did. :P
I'm not familiar with Fedora processes, I'm just chiming in with an FYI.
Screen reader users still rely on the X11 session because of https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/at-spi2-core/-/issues/163
The GNOME Foundation is funding work on solving the issue, but we don't know if it will be done in time for Fedora 41 / GNOME 47.
GNOME has an upstream issue for this https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-session/-/merge_requests/98
It's not just screen readers that are broken in Wayland, there are various other accessibility needs that currently aren't supported at all by Wayland, including speech recognition (for people with RSI or unable to use hands).
PS: There's some discussion about perhaps eventually adding accessibility to Wayland in https://gitlab.com/fedora/dei/a11y/-/issues/10#note_1804644788
I fail to see how this is relevant for the question discussed in this ticket.
@sonnyp We're aware that GNOME a11y on Wayland is incomplete, that's why the packages aren't being deleted yet. But not installing them by default is another push to ensure that this stuff gets solved in some form or fashion.
Metadata Update from @ngompa: - Issue assigned to ngompa
Metadata Update from @ngompa: - Issue set to the milestone: Fedora 41 (was: Fedora 40)
Personally, I think this is a bad idea when wayland still doesn't work well with nvidia cards and as someone else pointed out certain features are just not there in Wayland. But what do I know, I'm just an end user not a programmer. If Fedora wishes to keep pushing Wayland on us despite it's still not feature complete its not my fault people may switch to another flavor to ensure compatibility. Yes many other flavors are looking at wayland, but it's still optional for a reason. Fedora shouldn't make this move for at least another two years.
Just install the session file again if you want it back.
@shervine @madmanrb Fedora Workstation 41 is nearly a year away and Wayland development is moving mindbogglingly fast. I'm sure the last nvidia paper cuts (mostly just explicit sync) will be fixed and a11y will be in a better state by the time Fedora 41 is ready to go.
Let's give it time before deciding if it's good to go or not :)
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