Members of the KDE SIG feel that by Fedora 42, it will be time to elevate KDE to Edition status in Fedora. It already meets several of the criteria for that status.
What happens in the next year is that KDE Plasma will change their release schedule to a six month cadence. This change will allow us to match our updates with Fedora's release schedule.
After looking at the terms to become a Fedora Edition[1] and looking at the history of past desktop edition attempts, we felt our only option would be to replace GNOME with KDE in Fedora Workstation. We submitted a Change Proposal to do this.[2]
We learned several things by submitting this change proposal. The biggest was that we should have gone to the Fedora Workstation Group first with our proposal. Thus we are here.
We propose that KDE replace GNOME in the Fedora Workstation.
If this is not acceptable, we would like to talk with the Fedora Workstation Group about possible ways to promote KDE to Edition level status in Fedora.
Sincerely, The Fedora KDE SIG
[1] - https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policy/edition-promotion-policy/ [2] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraPlasmaWorkstation
Metadata Update from @catanzaro: - Issue tagged with: meeting-request
As a LongTime Fedora Workstation user, and a magazine contributor I am totally against replacing Gnome with KDE. I will definitely stop using Fedora if this come to pass.
To be clear, we're not looking into replacing the actual software, i.e. retiring the gnome stack. We're looking to change the fedora default choice, or at least putting it side-by-side with kde.
I am totally against KDE being the default choice then. I don't mind it being and edition level alternative, I think some of the (other) desktop environments that are now spins may be qualified to be elevated to that level as well. But I don't buy into, want or endorse replacing Gnome as the first class option for the Workstation Edition.=20 Regards Stephen On Sat, 2024-04-13 at 12:52 +0000, Steve Cossette wrote:
=20 farchord added a new comment to an issue you are following: `` As a LongTime Fedora Workstation user, and a magazine contributor I am totally against replacing Gnome with KDE. I will definitely stop using Fedora if this come to pass. =20 To be clear, we're not looking into replacing the actual software, i.e. retiring the gnome stack. We're looking to change the fedora default choice, or at least putting it side-by-side with kde. `` =20 To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/425
=20 farchord added a new comment to an issue you are following: ``
As a LongTime Fedora Workstation user, and a magazine contributor I am totally against replacing Gnome with KDE. I will definitely stop using Fedora if this come to pass. =20 To be clear, we're not looking into replacing the actual software, i.e. retiring the gnome stack. We're looking to change the fedora default choice, or at least putting it side-by-side with kde. `` =20 To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/425
This issue is solely on the merits of replacing Fedora GNOME with Fedora KDE for Workstation Edition. This issue is about the KDE SIG engaging with the Workstation WG about this.
So, what you're saying is my opinion is not welcome or invited on this topic? On Sat, 2024-04-13 at 13:00 +0000, Neal Gompa wrote:
=20 ngompa added a new comment to an issue you are following: This issue is solely on the merits of replacing Fedora GNOME with Fedora KDE for Workstation Edition. This issue is about the KDE SIG engaging with the Workstation WG about this. =20 To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/425
No, I was responding to @farchord's statement.
Sorry, my bad On Sat, 2024-04-13 at 13:05 +0000, Neal Gompa wrote:
=20 ngompa added a new comment to an issue you are following: No, I was responding to @farchord's statement. =20 To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/425
Having tried it on a F40 machine with updates-testing, it surprised me how installing KDE and using it once causes some glitches in GNOME, beyond just changing the themes.
<img alt="3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png" src="/fedora-workstation/issue/raw/files/2803d8799c8d9951133f4a3969c49f85c954b27459c6aa462593f047cb23fd7d-3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png" />
I'm informed this does not always happen, and some people use both KDE and GNOME interchangeably, but can we require that promotion to Edition status involves testing that the desktop can be used interchangeably without issues?
I have tried to do that (run both KDE and Gnome DE as user selectable), many releases ago, like way too far back (F19/F20?) to have a valid opinion. At that time the experience was sub-optimal, now I don't know. Some of this is the underlying tech I would think GTK (Gnome) and QT (KDE) and how it actually behaves installed together.=20 But you're correct in pointing that out likely, since the Fedora Workstation has changed greatly over the past number of releases, and so too has the KDE project.=20
Regards, Stephen On Sat, 2024-04-13 at 13:35 +0000, Michel Lind wrote:
=20 salimma added a new comment to an issue you are following: Having tried it on a F40 machine with updates-testing, it surprised me how installing KDE and using it once causes some glitches in GNOME, beyond just changing the themes. =20 =20 [](/fedora- workstation/issue/raw/files/2803d8799c8d9951133f4a3969c49f85c954b2745 9c6aa462593f047cb23fd7d-3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png) =20 I'm informed this does not always happen, and some people use both KDE and GNOME interchangeably, but can we require that promotion to Edition status involves testing that the desktop can be used interchangeably without issues? =20 To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/425
Having tried it on a F40 machine with updates-testing, it surprised me how installing KDE and using it once causes some glitches in GNOME, beyond just changing the themes. =20 =20 [](/fedora- workstation/issue/raw/files/2803d8799c8d9951133f4a3969c49f85c954b2745 9c6aa462593f047cb23fd7d-3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png) =20 I'm informed this does not always happen, and some people use both KDE and GNOME interchangeably, but can we require that promotion to Edition status involves testing that the desktop can be used interchangeably without issues?
So, I somewhat tested this myself a couple months ago. I didn't install them side-by-side but I switched from Gnome to KDE and back a couple times by uninstalling the "previous" DE first. I can tell you about a couple things:
1- Anything using the DE's wallet system (Browsers for example) will break. They'll work, but you'll need to relogin to everything.
2- Themeing will usually work just fine in either. The experience was pretty good.
I haven't tried this with both installed at the same time though.
So ... the way this goes is either Workstation becomes KDE oriented (I doubt this will happen) or Workstation becomes multi desktop oriented.
The latter will mean people expect installing all the workstation packages together would work well, so either that happens or any limitation should be clearly documented.
Please refrain from this sort of comment in this discussion. We are not gathering feedback from users here, that has already been done in another moment and place.
Thanks!
It would be good to have @mattdm 's input when the working group discusses this.
Actually I think Matthew is looking for our input on this!
Pretty much. We (As in, a couple of us from the KDE sig) did consult him on this matter, and about the whole change proposal as well. His top recommendation was to speak to you guys first, so that's why we initiated this.
My opinion is that Workstation is fine as is, being based on GNOME and I see no reason to change it. Our users are used to Workstation being based on GNOME and the Workstation WG is happy to collaborate with upstream GNOME as is. Furthermore, I don't think it makes sense to have two completely different desktop environments under the Workstation umbrella: I think it's our strength that we are tightly focused here on a single offering.
However, having said that, I also think that it probably makes sense to promote the KDE spin more than what we do now (just not as part of Workstation). I'd suggest opening a Fedora Council discussion to potentially elevate KDE to an Edition status, in addition to the existing Editions that Fedora has, not replacing any of them.
Metadata Update from @catanzaro: - Issue untagged with: meeting-request - Issue tagged with: meeting
Hi Troy, do you want me to add this to tomorrow's meeting agenda?
Yes, tomorrow's meeting would be great.
Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting today - I'm traveling with kids. So, let me put my thoughts down here:
First, the KDE project and the Fedora KDE team has been doing great work. Making a desktop and integrating it into other portions of the operating system is not easy.
Changing the meaning of "Fedora Workstation" from release to release to include a different desktop environment would create a very confusing situation for users. Does a F40 desktop upgraded to F41 have a different desktop environment than a new install of F41?
I don't think the Workstation team is opposed to making some changes to the the way that the web site looks, or giving KDE an official Edition status, but it would be a serious mistake for the Fedora project to create a situation where a newcomer who doesn't know anything about desktop environments, is forced to choose between "Fedora Workstation (includes GNOME)" and "Fedora KDE (also a workstation)" on what looks like equal footing. People will just go and install Ubuntu.
Red Hat and particularly the Red Hat Display Systems team does not have the staffing or the experience to provide any support to KDE within Fedora for blocker bugs, debugging graphics driver issues, handling integration with operating system features, etc. We will not be shipping it as part of any future products.
Per the Change proposal, it does not change an existing install, only new installs.
Conclusion from this week's Working Group meeting:
Might be useful to wait for further WG discussion first.
We should discuss this next meeting, so that the KDE SIG can go to Council in two weeks.
Having tried it on a F40 machine with updates-testing, it surprised me how installing KDE and using it once causes some glitches in GNOME, beyond just changing the themes. <img alt="3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png" src="/fedora-workstation/issue/raw/files/2803d8799c8d9951133f4a3969c49f85c954b27459c6aa462593f047cb23fd7d-3d1fc3e6-9125-4cc6-9e2f-4f945b9d63b7.png" /> I'm informed this does not always happen, and some people use both KDE and GNOME interchangeably, but can we require that promotion to Edition status involves testing that the desktop can be used interchangeably without issues?
for completeness this is tracked upstream as https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485604 - there is a similar (linked) XWaylandVideoBridge issue where an artifact would appear on the GNOME desktop if you have a secondary monitor attached, dating back to Fedora 38 :(
The keyring breakage @farchord mentioned seems to only affect KDE - on KDE you would have to re-login, but logging back into GNOME everything just continues working (at least as far as nextcloud-client is concerned)
Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting today - I'm traveling with kids. So, let me put my thoughts down here: First, the KDE project and the Fedora KDE team has been doing great work. Making a desktop and integrating it into other portions of the operating system is not easy. Changing the meaning of "Fedora Workstation" from release to release to include a different desktop environment would create a very confusing situation for users. Does a F40 desktop upgraded to F41 have a different desktop environment than a new install of F41? I don't think the Workstation team is opposed to making some changes to the the way that the web site looks, or giving KDE an official Edition status, but it would be a serious mistake for the Fedora project to create a situation where a newcomer who doesn't know anything about desktop environments, is forced to choose between "Fedora Workstation (includes GNOME)" and "Fedora KDE (also a workstation)" on what looks like equal footing. People will just go and install Ubuntu. Red Hat and particularly the Red Hat Display Systems team does not have the staffing or the experience to provide any support to KDE within Fedora for blocker bugs, debugging graphics driver issues, handling integration with operating system features, etc. We will not be shipping it as part of any future products.
Agreed. So this seems to be a Council issue then? Since currently you can't have Editions with overlapping purposes. If the Workstation WG can collectively support KDE being promoted to an Edition status, maybe the KDE SIG can follow up with Council and ask for the Edition criteria to be adjusted to allow this.
That requirement is subject to interpretation. The purpose of Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop is specifically to serve users who like the KDE Plasma Desktop. This is very different from the purpose of Fedora Workstation.
Right. so... can I read that as saying you don't see that requirement as a blocker in promoting KDE to edition status? I think that's the best outcome we can get from that change proposal even if the implementation end up being something like Kubuntu - Edition status, more visibility etc.
Personally speaking, I wouldn't object to Fedora KDE exploring a different status for itself, so that it could somehow elevate itself above the other spins. Nor would I object to us exploring how Fedora KDE could have a more prominent place on the website. (I'd expect the Workstation Working Group to be consulted before any final decisions are made there, though.)
What I don't think would be a good idea is:
Michael — I totally agree on the use case / target thing. A KDE-based Edition would need more than that. At the same time, I'm open to Workstation broadening and changing its target userbase somewhat too — not to "desktop for GNOME fans" (although I'd certainly like that to be true) but maybe to something broader than "developers, developers, developers" (which as I noted elsewhere, hasn't really worked out, even though Fedora Workstation has been a huge success overall.)
Allan, FWIW...
I share your concern about docs. I would expect the KDE team to help with this. This is also why I asked the KDE folks to bring this to Workstation for collaboration: it would be nice for as many things as possible to be similar across desktops (particularly the common difficult issues: sound configuration, dealing with graphics drivers, system updates, etc.)
For what it's worth, we have almost no desktop specific documentation in Workstation today: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/workstation-docs/
I'm not actually sure whether these documents belong here or if they need to go somewhere more general...
Practically speaking, almost all of our end-user documentation is at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/contribute-to-quick-docs/.
I expected a lot of this to assume GNOME, but in fact that's not even currently the case.
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/accessibility-installation-with-orca/ even straight-up tells people to install the Mate spin for maximum accessibility (which, if true, is clearly something we need to work on, but that's a different issue).
But mostly, the instructions are command-line focused, and call out GNOME and/or Workstation when they apply there.
@catanzaro is that scheduled for the meeting tomorrow? I assume it's preferred if we don't come and crowd your meeting again right...? ;)
Yes indeed. The WG meetings are open to the public, but at this stage of this particular discussion, I think we'll likely be more productive with a smaller group. Neal should hopefully be there to represent Fedora KDE, though.
Please set up a meeting this week because the KDE SIG would like to deliberate on this in their next meeting.
So do we have a decision on this?
Nope. We still need further discussion.
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